My Falling out with the Hestia society

I want to start off by making a confession and also a historical explanation. /u/nemester and /u/atavisionary are the same person. I never really intended to make TWO relatively high profile accounts/names like this. It was sort of happenstance. My main account when I started reading moldbug’s unqualified reservations was /u/nemester. I put almost no thought into the name, it was just what I was using around reddit at the time. I liked what I read of moldbug’s and decided it might be fun to run a subreddit on the subject. I found /r/darkenlightenment abandoned by the first mod and with five subscribers (in 2014). I did a reddit request for it and got it. I would say it has been fairly successful since then.

After being a mod for a long while I started to realize how much writing I actually was doing in the comment threads and thought it would be of more value if I started posting these thoughts in longform on a blog. Not only would they be easier to find and index, but if reddit ever decided to ban me or my sub I would still have my material available somewhere. I also had a lot of material already available in the form of parts of the book I was working on, which of course is now completed several years later. Anyway, “Nemester’s blog” sounded stupid so I tried to think of a much more clever name. Basically I combined the biological term for a throw back trait/phenotype (atavism) with the term visionary. You can see a more full explanation here. So I started writing under the name Atavisionary and modding under the name Nemester. Path dependence. Had I seen the future I would have just done it all under Atavisionary, but hindsight is 20/20. Well, in addition to new and unique posts on the blog, I included partial excerpts from my book in blog posts on atavisionary.com to sort of trial test them, get feedback, and make improvements based on criticism.

This work as Atavisionary eventually got the attention of Hestia society. Hestia of course also founded social matter and the future primeval. Though keep in mind that my subreddit, /r/darkenlightenment, is actually older than Hestia. Hestia was formed after the breakdown of the website moreright (which occurred well after I started the sub). You can google this to find out more information, but briefly Mike Anisimov acted with impropriety on twitter and the rest of the blog writers on moreright decided to publicly excommunicate him and branch off. Before they announced hestia, however, I had already created atavisionary.com and I tangentially addressed the issue. That was written prior to any direct contact with the writers or ex-writers of moreright. Mike may have instigated the mess and my discussion, but I spent no more than a paragraph discussing internal drama of reaction then moved on to abstractions. You may have noticed a similarity in my modding policy. Attack the argument, not the person. Their decision with respect to Mike was probably warranted in my opinion, but frankly that had nothing to do with me so I won’t comment further. Now I am also suffering a similar ex-communication. However, I am actually the 4th person this has happened to that I am aware of and there may be more. First was Mike of course, then there was NIOreaction who I think now writes under reactionaryfuture, then there was Reed Perry who used to regularly write for social matter, and now me. This is starting to feel like a pattern. (Edit, make that 5)(Edit 2, Make that 6)

Eventually I was contacted (as atavisionary) on twitter by the voice of Hestia, Nick B Steves, and asked to join their slack. Slack is basically a private chatroom for discussing business. Something around 50-60% of the active neoreactionary writers were in the slack at the time and that is where they make all of their nefarious plans. Though notably the biggest names like Moldbug and Land have never been associated with Hestia as far as I am aware. However, it still seemed pretty official (that is a word they love to use a lot). Of course I excitedly agreed to join. It was nice to discuss modern events with people who had a similar understanding. I even tried to recruit additional mods for the sub from their group, but no one was interested. They suggested I make atavisionary a mod since of course that account was active on reddit… At the time I wasn’t quite ready to reveal to them that was just my alt and I had no other reason to say no, so I added ata as a mod even though it was basically pointless. What a joke that was. Much later I did reveal to them I was also nemester, though.

Slack was great for a while but it became clear that my ideas for how to proceed and the ideas of the “leadership” weren’t exactly in agreement. I won’t go into too many details, save two, but my major problem with “official” neoreaction is that they are far too secretive and far too timid. The main cause of our falling out has a lot to do with their loathing of transparency. Both in the current situation and while I was still on the slack. Prior to recent events, I had already started to distance myself from hestia. It has already been several months since I deleted my slack account but before that the very first major rift between us came when I found this white nationalist hit piece article which attacks moldbug and wolf tivy/warg franklin. Warg is one of the head people of hestia, and you can see he was on the email thread linked below. I posted this link in the private slack because, well, it is a bit of a concern if one of the main “leaders” of neoreaction is a literal cuckold. Their response was to remove the link and any comment referring to it. And this wasn’t just my comments, it was a number of people on the slack who were censored. Keep in mind this was a private chat room, not a public forum, so striesanding probably wasn’t going to happen. And wouldn’t have happened now if hestia didn’t continue to make one poor decision after another. Needless to say, I was pretty miffed by this action and it along with a number of other disagreements led to me leaving slack. It is clear from that experience, however, that the allegations against Warg in the above hit piece are absolutely true, and following hestia means following a cuck. It is hard to say what kind of skeletons the other “leaders” of hestia have in their closets. It is also clear that the “leadership” doesn’t have any plan for dealing with this unfortunate history, and prefer censorship to proper strategizing. I didn’t leave immediately after this happened, but this is when I started down that path. When I did leave, I didn’t stomp out or anything, I just said that the slack was distracting me from other work (which was true as well) and that if they needed anything they could reach me via email.

Earlier this month that is exactly what they did. You see, they knew that I have been allowing groups to advertise on the sub in one of the weekly stickies and they wanted their New York City based book club included. You may remember the group sticky from a few weeks ago. I started allowing meetups because several members of the /r/darkenlightenment community requested this. Ironically, the motivation for the people making these requests was the aborted phalanx initiative by moreright, most of whom later moved on to hestia. However, in the confusion of the Anisimov drama the project was abandoned, or at least the public facing part of the project. That left a vacuum and I had to create a policy with respect to these meetups because of the requests I was getting. I forget exactly when I came up with the meetup policy, but I would guess it has been at least a year and it was definitely before I had any involvement with hestia at all. The important bit is that my rules on meetups have been established for a very long time, they are clear and easy to follow, and there is not really any good reason for hestia not to follow them to get included in the weekly post. Well, they made their group, posted, and requested it be stickied. Since we were on good terms I did sticky it but with the instructions that they needed to update it to conform to my rules. They did not do so the entire week it was stickied, so I never bothered updating the normal weekly sticky with their group in it. Which of course led to the falling out. Below are screen shots of our conversation via email.

Email thread 1

email thread 2

email thread 3

email thread 4

twitter DM

email thread 5

email thread 6

Believe it or not, a large portion of the Hestia society lives and works in New York City. Well they certainly live up to the stereotypes people have about New Yorkers. They have a very inflated sense of self importance.

The short of it is they are far too willing to mislead those who might listen to them, such as the community we have built here on /r/darkenlightenment. Even among those who are sympathetic to them (like me) they take a very high and mighty attitude, which is why you are learning about this today. Worst of all, they have absolutely no respect for the /r/darkenlightenment community. They don’t even want to give you a decent description of their meetup group. They don’t even have any respect for me who has spent two years and a lot of work building and moderating this community. I won’t lie, I am still in awe that they so steadfastly refused to follow such a simple and longstanding rule. I can’t understand why they think they shouldn’t have to follow the rules of my community. No sensible organization with any sort of decent leadership would have pointlessly risked alienating a major ally like hestia so carelessly has in this case. It is clearly a symptom of poor leadership.

From what I understand, part of their reluctance to provide any information whatsoever is that they literally take compartmentalization as a religion there. They aren’t trying to form an organic community, they are trying to recreate a spy agency secrecy state. I don’t know what to say other than fuck that. I believe in hierarchy, but that isn’t incompatible with transparency. I don’t want to live in a compartamentalized community where everything is a secret, I want an organic community. And I think most people here would agree with that sentiment. Moreover, one of the things that put neoreaction on the map in the first place was our candid discussions of politically incorrect issues. Their departure from that sentiment towards secrecy is a 180 degree shift from everything that neoreactionary thought was founded on, and I believe that if they continue down that path they will fail. I mean, do you really want to be led by a group that doesn’t even respect you enough to give you a brief description of their meetup group? From my experience, I don’t think they could lead themselves out of a wet paper sack, let alone make neoreaction a cultural force to be reckoned with. Thanks to my personal experience with their group, I reject any claims they have made to any sort of authority and I believe you should as well. This is their current motto:

Become worthy

Accept power

Rule

Hestia society has in no way ever demonstrated that they are worthy of leadership or power and until they do no one should take their claim of leadership of neoreaction seriously. Hestia is and always has been nothing more than a collection of blog writers. Some of them are very good too, but that is as far as it goes. The main founders of neoreaction (moldbug and land) are not and have never been among their ranks. They have accomplished very little in the real world, and their current plan of action shows them to be the underpants gnomes of the far right. Their strategy is:

Don’t tell anybody anything → ? → profit.

How they ever expect to get more people on board with their plan with out actually telling them anything of substance I have no idea. Any one who actually starts associating with them will quickly realize they are being kept in the dark about most things and ditch them because that experience makes it very clear they are untrustworthy.

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46 thoughts on “My Falling out with the Hestia society

  1. Dan Ghansky says:

    I always enjoyed your work, it was different from other NRx content, uniquely honest and insightful. I’ve since moved on from NRx, not because it’s not a good thing, I’ve just outgrown it. I’m now a White Nationalist, WN has changed a great deal since the old days. It’s an intellectual movement now, with amazing bloggers and publishers like Greg Johnson at Counter Currents, and many others. Well worth checking it out again. As for Hestia, I think it has, or maybe had, enormous potential. Conservative thinking has gone viral, sadly though for NRx, Hestia has missed the boat due to its inward looking and frankly, navel gazing. Good luck with the future and I hope you continue to write.

  2. Revox says:

    As an exile from the libertarian movement, this failure mode is all too familiar. At this point, it needs canonization: High IQ intellectual nerds cannot lead a successful social movement. I posit that there has to be some sort of fundamental conflict of abilities here. The traits that make them good at critical social analysis and fundamentally identifying the truth are the same that make them bad at leading. This frustrates the nerds. They’re so damn good at everything else, and so damn smarter that everyone else! This should be a piece of cake!

    Yet every time, the “movement” collapses into petty positioning, backbiting, and intellectual purges. Every. Time. It’s getting to the point where my default attitude to anyone who makes an intellectual argument, no matter how brilliant, logical and correct will be : ‘That’s nice. Now let’s see you do something useful with it.’

    Let’s try to plan around this obvious problem next time around, hmm?

    • I agree. I gave them every opportunity in the world to avoid this disclosure but persisted anyway. Writing 400 words would have literally avoided this entire situation. At the risk of being cliched, I can’t even… I even point blank stated that if you do X, Y, Z there is going to be disclosure and you probably want to avoid that. They went ahead full steam and I was left no choice but to make full disclosure.

  3. Sig Sawyer says:

    Their strategy seems to be an infiltration of existing institutions rather than creating an organic, popular reactionary consciousness. I don’t think the latter is possible; liberalism and demotism are too powerful as thought-viruses to defeat with rhetoric unless you go full Hitler. Might as well try and convince a Salafi to become an atheist. And even Hitler’s regime was bourgeois and stained by low-class thought and demotism. At the same time, I don’t think any one of us (as far as I can tell) is the caliber of man required to bend an institution to his will and turn the Cathedral reactionary. Plenty of Merlins around the sphere, no Arthurs.

    My take on it is that a reactionary society will naturally arise out of the blood and chaos that accompany the collapse of empire. What is necessary is to recruit talent, consolidate around a platform, and plant the seeds of parallel institutions that are visible enough and accessible enough for people to turn to when things go south. At first we’ll be the weirdos, the secret society that believes in monarchy and bestows each other ridiculous noble titles, maybe even nominally a political party that gets interviewed on the news and wins a couple seats in small towns and insignificant cities. Young people, eager for a new flavor of transgression, join us and are sifted through our ranks as boredom and life weed out the pretenders. Genuine talent sticks; successful people, businessmen, writers, artists, the creative and driven few who society has provided no direction to. In other words, natural aristocrats. When the riots begin, we marshal the civilian resistance. When the state weakens, we quietly resist its power and expand our spheres of influence. When academia is silent, or babbles nonsense, we publish. When everything falls, we are ready to stand. That simple fact alone will predispose the masses to follow us and accept the order we impose on them.

    • Khorne says:

      This is where I beg to differ.

      For all intents and purposes, the people who can lead may very well be amongst our ranks.

      Strange as the notion may be, some of the best kings have come from unwilling stock. What made them great? The will and the dire circumstances that would come if they failed.

      If anything, we need to prepare material that can help form these people and minds. Prepare them for the restorative work. Give them mental tools alongside the spiritual and physical ones that others can provide.

  4. Aeroguy says:

    I share your displeasure with being kept in the dark, particularly given the severe drop in discussion of actual NRx theory/praxis within the ranks of Hestia that it causes. I’d sympathize with you completely except you made one critical mistake. Creating a separate subreddit doesn’t constitute an attack. Especially given how much NRx is built on exit and patchwork. You had a disagreement, it happens, but you chose to interpret them going their own separate way as an attack as if you own reddit, and retaliate with dirty laundry of all things.

    • Khorne says:

      Being built on exit and patchwork doesn’t mean that you’ll end up making a good patch somewhere else.

      I doubt Hestia could make a good patch in light of all these things.

    • Khorne says:

      I don’t see how this relates to Hestia having it’s own subreddit.

      Read Atavisionary’s words. He’s referring to Hestia’s lack of transparency while asking for an add for Hestia’s book club to be put on Atavisionary’s own subreddit.

  5. Magus says:

    If you had/have disagreements, nothing was stopping you from carrying on doing what you were doing, saying no them, and keeping any issues to yourself. You may even have been in the right somewhat, I don’t know. But this hissy fit and airing of private emails and correspondence is unbecoming.

    (the irony is that by writing the above you have completely justified all preemptive actions towards you and their compartmentalization mindset. The lack of self awareness you show in not realizing this is startling)

    Real men have disagreements, real men even fight sometimes.What real men don’t do is throw hissy fits. Women and children do. I thought you better than this.

    • Sachihiro says:

      Hestia declared war first with their “official” subreddit.

      • That’s ridiculous. People open new subreddits every day. Threatening to blackmail was the first (and only) declaration of war, and actually forced Hestia’s hand to create the subreddit. To date, we have said nothing but positive things about Atavisionary and r/DE.

        • You guys threatened me that if I didn’t change my rules that I had clearly listed for over a year to suit your misguided fears that you were going to make an “official” sub. Pretend all you want like this is my fault, but you guys just couldn’t help but make multiple poor decisions. Now the whole world is keenly aware how little the word “official” applies to you. Official amateurs maybe.

          • You might want to mention the pre-existing subs which addressed exactly the same stuff that is going to happen in the new sub:

            http://www.reddit.com/r/whiterights

            http://www.reddit.com/r/new_right

            /r/new_right, which is maintained by allies of Amerika and our friends, has provided a high-quality insane-bigotry-free feed for something like seven years now.

            I do not see an outpouring of support from the Neoreactionary community for that, or for our work with ANUS and CORRUPT in the years before Moldbug. In fact, there seems to be a bigotry against us from those who should in theory support us. I wonder why — I am not speaking of any particular people here, only a generalized pattern.

            I would warn all of you however that Reddit has a great interface for posting links but if you spend too much time on there, you will wake up at 4 AM rolling on Molly wearing a fursuit whilst singing along to songs from anime. Reddit is where low self-confidence white males go to find bros who agree that the world is not fair and communism and legal weed would solve all of our problems.

          • I have been a subscriber to /r/new_right for a very long time though I don’t comment much.

            To be frank, when I was still in the slack and I was naive enough to try to get those guys more involved in the sub, they all denied any desire to do so. Not only that, they actively talked about how they wished there was no reddit presence at all. Obviously I wasn’t going to listen to that. Almost none of them have used reddit up to this point and they didn’t want to start. Now that they are mad at me all of a sudden they want to make up new accounts and start their own sub. A complete 180 from what they professed to want 6 months ago. It is pettiness pure and simple, and I don’t actually believe they are going to change their habits and really get into reddit. The lengths they go to prove how poor leaders they are is astounding.

        • Khorne says:

          Now you’re projecting! Since when did Hestia member become a synonym for SJW?

          • Khorne says:

            This is for that disingenious non-sense peddler Steves, seeing as his amateur mind may try and pin this one on Atavisionary in an attempt to spread more lies.

        • People open new subreddits every day.

          I think the problem here is that there is only a certain amount of audience for similar topics, and this audience is now being divided between /r/europeannationalism, /r/new_right, /r/paleoconservative, /r/whiterights, /r/darkenlightenment and probably others, instead of being concentrated as it was in /r/european whereupon it became very effective, so much that Reddit shut it down (well, that and its tendency to sperg out on race hate).

          /r/darkenlightenment has done a great job of raising the bar of discourse, which /r/new_right also took as its approach a few years earlier.

          If we want to be effective, we should work as one and apply the higher standards of /r/DE as a general rule. This allows us to prosper without becoming the antithesis of our own ideals.

          • jamesd127 says:

            Telling Hestia that you will run your subreddit your way, and they can damn well run their subreddit their way is totally fair, and should in no way impair your ability to work with Hestia, or Hestia’s ability to work with you.

            Publishing this internal disagreement is really bad, and does impair the ability of people with similar views to work together.

            Hestia is secretive, conspiratorial, and authoritarian in part so that dirty laundry does not get aired in public. And here we are airing dirty laundry in public. Let us not.

            Being secretive, conspiratorial, and authoritarian lends itself to all sorts of abuses. Maybe it is hard to find leadership that can lead well from such a position, Maybe Hestia leadership are not people who can lead well from such a position. Maybe we need a different leadership. But this thread, and this article, demonstrates the need for secretive, conspiratorial, and authoritarian leadership.

            If we do need different leadership, we don’t need leadership from people who are prone to discuss leadership in public.

            By the way, I say this as someone who thinks that Hestia’s secrecy and internal security totally sucks and they are only larping at being a secretive conspiracy. I recommend Viber group chat with the security features activated for genuinely secret conversations. If we are going to be secretive and conspiratorial, let us keep it secret from Google, not just secret from the rest of the outside-the-Overton-Window-right.

  6. Rando says:

    Do not care about reddit part but regarding hestia slack, well, serves you right. Seriously expecting oldschool nrx to seriously engage with wn is retarded. Seriously expecting them to seriously comment on ‘lol nochin joos and cucks’ is even more retarded. Also, expecting people whom you’ve voluntary chosen as authorities in intellectual endeavors to owe you any explanations re:their_past is retarded. Also, since Exit > Voice and drama = voice, you get F at nrx101.
    To summarise: banning everyone who has fallen for this bait is a sensible action. Hestian inquisition did well. If only they did the same with cross-and-christ crowd.
    To be fair, they shoud’ve done the purge with more discretion not to look triggered. Inclusion errors are to be expected, so good exclusion procedure shoud be in place. Now I will probably get bunch of retweets with wn trash in my timeline

  7. undefined says:

    I’ve said it before, your writing is higher quality than most NRX. Aside from Spandrell, Jim, and 28Sherman, this is the only NRX blog I still follow. In my opinion, most NRX is way too verbose relative to the value of the content.

    But the largest failing of NRX is their flawed analysis of power, especially in democracies. As early as the 1920s, Bernays admitted that control of media constitutes the true, unseen power in a democratic society. If you can control what people think, and what ideas they’re exposed to, you can get them to accept any ideology over time.

    It’s not like the elite, which NRX is supposedly trying to court, is stupid. They know what they’re doing, and they’re doing it intentionally. We may think that’s dumb and self destructive, but we that’s due to our normalcy bias. They don’t think in terms of national interest, only group and self interest. As such, they’ll create scenarios that are detrimental to national interests when it serves their group interests.

    The Communists and Nazis were supposedly mortal enemies, yet the US provided them funding through the Federal Reserve and helped them develop their infrastructure. Professor Anthony Sutton produced volumes of evidence that document this. That seems pretty counterintuitive from the perspective of someone who has to fight and die in that war, but not from the perspective of someone wishing to create the UN or Bank of International Settlements.

    They see themselves as a separate group, so care not whether they destroy a nation. Their kids won’t be the ones sent off to war, and they can always move somewhere else. Destruction of nations allows the elite to strip mine land and assets, and buy everything up for a song. Recall the Oligarchs in post USSR Russia.

    The true movers and shakers of society are acting behind the scenes. If you are visible and your power formalized, you become an easy target for your adversaries. Many politicians have been assassinated through the ages. You’re not going to change much if you’re pushing up daisies. Every effective power structure, especially intelligence agencies, operate in secrecy if they wish to remain in power for long.

    If you’re interested in the nature of power in society, I’d highly recommend researching Propaganda (Bernays), the Hegelian Dialectic (problem, reaction, solution), and Ponerology (nature of psychopathy, and it’s genetic heritability). The above fundamentally changed the way I viewed power.

    Keep up the good writing. Breaking from Hestia is a gain, not a loss. Not to pile on, but your writing is of tremendously higher quality. Congrats on the book.

    • 28sherman is cool dude. He is easily their best guy. In fact, I would argue he is the only thing holding hestia together. A good offer (i.e. paying job) from another group would probably get him to switch. He is worth it. An extremely insightful writer who produces regularly.

  8. Sachihiro says:

    Unfortunate, but expected. The best and the brightest of NRx are long gone, almost all of the worthy blogs either defunct or deleted. You are one of the last old-school NRx guys, the geniuses that brought NRx its reputation, one that Hestia unjustly hijacked by claiming it was the owner of NRx (their Social Matter after all this time doesn’t have the number of subscribers Bryce Laliberte alone had, and Bryce wasn’t even one of the best ones). Hestia is plagued not only by poor leadership, but also by great foolishness, pertaining to being high-brow reactionaries they should know better than going against you (you are of higher-profile within the community than any Social Matter writer, except maybe Ryan Landry). If they wanted to create spy agency they wouldn’t need donations for Social Matter (donations are all well and good, but don’t pretend you’re something you’re not, i.e. TRS doesn’t pretend it’s building state within a state). Hestia is, of course, deluding themselves if they think a Canadian cuckold is going to create far-right vanguard party.

  9. AntiDem says:

    I’ve had my own… well, let’s call it a “parting of the ways” with the Hestia Society recently myself, so I think we can say that’s five of us who have ended up distancing ourselves from them lately. Many of my reasons seem quite similar to yours. Much of what I’ve had to say about it has been through my Ask.FM account – here’s a selection of relevant answers:

    http://ask.fm/antidem/answers/138740759489
    http://ask.fm/antidem/answers/138767366593
    http://ask.fm/antidem/answers/138879675585
    http://ask.fm/antidem/answers/138902186689

    I would say that current NRx leadership suffers from a deeply flawed understanding of how leadership actually works. It’s not about haughtily barking orders at people who you’ve given no incentive to follow you at all. The vast majority of the time, leadership is about teambuilding, dealmaking, negotiation, getting people on your side, granting favors, and calling in favors. None of them have shown any talent for this whatsoever. Yes, I understand that reactionaries are a prickly and antisocial bunch, and getting them going in a straight line is an exercise in cat herding. So fucking what? It’s a hard job. The world is full of hard jobs. If you can’t handle it, don’t apply for it. If you end up with it and it becomes obvious that it’s beyond your abilities, do everybody a favor and quit. If you don’t do either, no sympathy from me. Coffee is for closers only.

    Well, maybe this experience will teach them all a valuable lesson. One can only hope.

    • Thanks for sharing, and ya your complaints are very similar to my own. Like I said, this is starting to feel like a pattern.

    • This sort of analysis is at great risk from sample bias. If 5 out of 8 close associates surveyed report bad experiences, then… the organization probably sucks. But if 5 out of 100 are negative, well then maybe it says more about the 5 that squawk than the 95 who don’t.

      Which is a more likely scenario? Everyone will have to guess, because Hestia is not interested in popularity.

      • regulus says:

        https://i.imgur.com/NzkGmK5.jpg

        See this? You and your ilk are the man on the left.

      • regulus says:

        Continuing to miss the point, I see? Hmph, pitiful. I find it hilarious that you bring up a childish bias statement as defense of your indefensible behavior. Especially considering the biases of your own that you defend.

        The fact that you won’t release your numbers makes this a worthless statement. No transparency means no numbers, means that, for all we care, your numbers are inflated.

        Face it, this scenario speaks infinitely more about Hestia than it does about the 5 who were banned.

        It also speaks to the fundamental megalamonia and dishonesty that pervades your ilk.

      • Khorne says:

        Your actions speak to the fundamental megalamonia and dishonesty that pervades your ilk.

      • Khorne says:

        Isn’t it hilarious?

        You trying to attack NRx’s critics by using a bullshit majoritarian tactic? The kind that you explicitly deny and call bullshit?

        The lack of self-awareness is obvious for everyone to see.

      • Khorne says:

        Nothing but meaningless, obscurant nonsense, lies, and all manner of deceit comes from your ilk.

        You say you are Catholic? No, your God happens to be a caricature of Moldbug. And he would likely reject you, regardless of whether it is Moldbug of today or Moldbug of Prime UR.

      • AntiDem says:

        Sorry, no.

        Basic Hitchens’s Razor here. Claims presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence. In response to our complaints about the leadership of the Hestia Society, you have implicitly presented the claim that many more people are satisfied with that leadership than are not satisfied with it. You have also implicitly presented the claim that you have evidence to back this up, which for some reason or another you refuse to present to us. Okay, but that’s still a claim presented without evidence, and we are still within our rights to dismiss it without evidence. You have the right to make any claim you like. You do not have the right to have other people take that claim seriously. If you want that to happen, you have to present evidence for it. You have not done so with this claim. In the trash it goes.

        Saying that we’ll all have to guess implies that you don’t care whether we all believe your claim or not. This, of course is asinine – a case of the form of an argument contradicting the content of the argument. If you don’t care whether or not someone believes a claim you’re making, why bother presenting it to them at all? The only reason to present a claim to someone (other than as intentional deception or a hypothetical thought exercise in a philosophical debate – neither of which seem to be the case here) is because you want them to believe it.

        This is another example of Hestia Society tone-deafness. It only makes someone look either foolish or deceptive when they make a claim that they are not prepared to present evidence for. That’s what bluffers and bullshitters do. This is the wrong circle of people to try that with – we’ll call you on it every time, and if you’ve got nothing you’ll just end up looking like a doofus.

        That’s important because Job #1 of a secret cabal (Hestia’s word, not mine) that wants to gain power and impose its order on society is to not look like fools. There’s a thin line between coming across like Ernst Stavro Blofeld and coming across like Dr. Evil. You guys have some work to do to get back on the right side of that line.

      • Alf says:

        oh man where’s my popcorn….

        Thoughts:
        – I don’t mind the secrecy. Power is best discussed behind closed doors.
        – The Warg/cuck thing is bad for morale.
        – The entire nature of NRx is sperg supremacy. A spergy männerbund is the natural outcome.
        – If those disillusioned with Hestia think they can do a better job, perhaps they can start their own society?

    • It’s not about haughtily barking orders at people who you’ve given no incentive to follow you at all. The vast majority of the time, leadership is about teambuilding, dealmaking, negotiation, getting people on your side, granting favors, and calling in favors.

      I think this is a great topic in itself and hope you write on it. Leadership to my mind is about solving problems and finding places for people in a structure designed to do that. Its antithesis, tyranny, involves a “do it my way or you’re not in the cool kids group anymore,” which kind of describes all of Reddit actually.

  10. regulus says:

    Continuing to miss the point, I see? Hmph, pitiful. I find it hilarious that you bring up a childish bias statement as defense of your indefensible behavior. Especially considering the biases of your own that you defend.

  11. Khorne says:

    Keep up the good work, Atavisionary. This may have happened, but don’t let it weigh you down in any way.

  12. […] Enough of my curmudgeon ranting. I will add to this post some excerpts of an excellent rant made by Atavisionary: […]

  13. Rollory says:

    I have some sympathy with the basic thrust of the argument here but the posted email thread doesn’t make anybody come off in a good light.

    If you had said something like

    “Nope. The rules are clearly posted and apply to everyone. If you want to discuss changing them and have good reasons, that’s a different discussion. If you just don’t feel they work for you, you’re under no obligation to have it posted here.”

    and just repeated that 2 or 3 times, that would have been far, far more constructive. Instead it reads as being a sudden and decisive turn toward the vicious. (Whether you agree with that is not the point, I’m telling you how it appears from the outside.)

  14. Thank you for sharing this Atavisionary, it is important to highlight things like this so people can draw their own conclusions.

    One of the things I regret these days is appearing on Ascending the Tower – giving my voice an association to a Hestia production sits ill with me in light of how they have acted in the past, continue to act, and the kind of people (cucks) who make up their inner circle.

    It was clear during my kerfuffle with NRx that many involved lack honour, lack integrity and do not understand genuine objects to their behaviour. You can observe that here which details how Hestia can’t handle things like grown men

    https://esoterictrad.wordpress.com/2016/04/19/censorship-and-shutdown/

    There is a clear pattern here now if you look closely and Hestia are at this stage a complete joke without credibility in many peoples eyes. No doubt they will continue their circle jerk and pull well meaning people down with them.

  15. […] Nationalism. Neo-neoreaction. Death. Long Struggle. Joy (in) Division. Rational intolerance. Cucksuicide. Conservatism with […]

  16. […] (there was a lot of tedious stuff to do). I decided to start really getting things moving after my falling out with Hestia society because that incident strongly suggested a need for a purist revival. Like I mentioned earlier, […]

  17. […] based on universal inclusion. At that point, they become Leftist in all but name, and many of the recent attempts to control the narrative are done solely in this aim, even if they state […]

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